2006-05-20T09:24:00.000-07:00

Argument with Atheists !!!

Mr.A = Atheists

Me:

Why should all masses in the universe attract each other ? That too perfectly by the factor of Mm/R^2. Doesnt this prove that there is a designer behind all of them ?

Mr. A:
electricity

2 questions for you atm...
1. Who created the universe?
2. Who created the man?

Me:

God.
God.
Everything needs a creator except God.

Mr. A:
good.
that was my 3th question...

who created god?

doesn't it need a creator?
why?
god simply "appeared"?
if yes, i guess we have ilusionists in churchs, not priests.the book you pray was created by someone you don't even imagine who is.it was written by a man."

The first priest was the first smart guy who found the first fool."
Voltaire

Me:

Asking why?
You havent yet answered my WHY (refer 1st post).
I hope Atheists can explain anything with "Science".
There are many WHYs in this Universe for which NO ONE will ever be able to give answers.
For eg. Science says that the universe before Big-Bang is undefined and doesnt make sense.

Answer my WHY now..

Mr.A:
You seem to assume atheists should answer every question in universe in order to prove that there is no god. Being an atheist does not confer one immediately with einstein's brain.

For your questions, I would answer "I dont know". Just because I dont know answer for something, it does not prove there is God.

Those equations are just mathematical formulations of what is observerd in practice. But nothing of that sort is true with god. See this: both you and me dont know something. I say I dont know, you say you know and the answer is God. But I ask you what is god and you flounder. What is the use of adding one more layer of useless abstraction?

Atlast, I dont _hate_ god. I simply think that the god as per definition in any religion cannot logically exist. I would very much like god to be existant, because I would like the guy who stole my cellphone rot in hell etc etc.

But, opening my eyes to reality, I have learned to live with the fact that the guy who stole my cellphone would have sold it for 1/10th of its price and would be cheering with KF strong...

I apologize if I had said anything to offend you. Just my 2 cents...

Me:
Pls see my response in bold.

You seem to assume atheists should answer every question in universe in order to prove that there is no god.

even if they dont have answers, i assume they will have some logical explanation for it

Being an atheist does not confer one immediately with einstein's brain.

agree. he himself was curious about what God thinks, "I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details." -Einstein>

For your questions, I would answer "I dont know". Just because I dont know answer for something, it does not prove there is God.

Not only you my friend

Those equations are just mathematical formulations of what is observerd in practice.

no random numbers in this math, let it be force of attraction, speed of rotation, revolution,path traced, etc.

But nothing of that sort is true with god.

He is the Creator

See this: both you and me dont know something. I say I dont know, you say you know and the answer is God.

Forget me, if anybody else knows the answer, what it could be? (others inthe community can answer this question)

But I ask you what is god and you flounder.

God is one.He is eternal.He begets not.Nor is He begotten.There is none like Him

What is the use of adding one more layer of useless abstraction?

you would like the guy who stole your cellphone to rot in hell

Atlast, I dont _hate_ god. I simply think that the god as per definition in any religion cannot logically exist.

lets forget how religions define God, Atheists are free to think 'out of the box'

I would very much like god to be existant, because I would like the guy who stole my cellphone rot in hell etc etc.

OK

But, opening my eyes to reality, I have learned to live with the fact that the guy who stole my cellphone would have sold it for 1/10th of its price and would be cheering with KF strong...

Not everyone need to be noble enough

I apologize if I had said anything to offend you. Just my 2 cents...

Of course not.
===
Mr A:
shakeel,your god is a copy.take ancient egypsian religion, for instance.

horus was the sun godhorus was born from a virginhorus was born december 25thhorus used to make miracleshorus suppousely had 12 apostlesif there is god, shouldn't each human being know for sure there is a god?
why are there so many gods?
you can't even imagine how many different religions existwhy your church used to consider the black people "without soul" ?

why has your church SLAYED many scientits who had their theories? (and they were proved to be right latter)why has your church changed it's "rules" so many times?why has imperor Constantine changed the old testament?

"The ignorance is a blessing."only who doesn't know religions believe in a godi'm not only against christianismbut i truly hate your churchall other religions practically say "

we are wrong anyway, follow us or not."christianism created and ideology of sorrow for "killing" jesus

chistianism uses violence quietlyyour church kills and doesn't let anyone know .

Mr.A (another Atheist):
Interesting ... Shakeel, You either like arguments very much or just like to provoke people to see how they react :-) , just kidding, but interesting you inviting Atheists to join your group to argue ;-)

Coming to the point, why are we even discussing, neither can we prove god does not exist nor can you prove that there is any such thing as god.If someone likes to believe that this whole world is something like Matrix where everything is controlled by the mainframe computer (referred as god) then so be it.

ignorance is bliss.Because once the realization that there is no god sets in, then you may find it very diffcult to cope with the fact that you (and the environment and other people) are sole people responsible for all your actions and nobody else.

So please continue with your belief, we are not here to change that, why ruin somebody's happiness.god as a concept during the times when there was no culture or laws to follow was probably a good concept to instill moral values or guidelines to live in a soceity, to live and let live. But now the concept seems to have outlived its purpose and people interpretted in ways that they want.

It has gone to such an extent that different gods have started preacing different value system. gods now even requires followers of other god to be killed to protect their own follwers, can gods get any better ? like I said , this post is for others, why are u guys arguing.

Shakeel is in his comfort zone, let him be. There is only one life with a definite life span, so let him enjoy. Shakeel, believe whatever you want to....

Me:
My response in bold.

shakeel,your god is a copy.take ancient egypsian religion, for instance.horus was the sun godhorus was born from a virginhorus was born december 25thhorus used to make miracleshorus suppousely had 12 apostles

if there is god, shouldn't each human being know for sure there is a god?

why are there so many gods? you can't even imagine how many different religions existwhy your church used to consider the black people "without soul" ?why has your church SLAYED many scientits who had their theories? (and they were proved to be right latter)why has your church changed it's "rules" so many times?why has imperor Constantine changed the old testament?

"The ignorance is a blessing."only who doesn't know religions believe in a god

i'm not only against christianism

but i truly hate your church

all other religions practically say "we are wrong anyway, follow us or not."christianism created and ideology of sorrow for "killing" jesus

chistianism uses violence quietlyyour church kills and doesn't let anyone know

Me: (responding to another)
Shakeel, You either like arguments very much or just like to provoke people to see how they react :-) , just kidding, but interesting you inviting Atheists to join your group to argue ;-)

Coming to the point, why are we even discussing, neither can we prove god does not exist nor can you prove that there is any such thing as god.

If someone likes to believe that this whole world is something like Matrix where everything is controlled by the mainframe computer (referred as god) then so be it. ignorance is bliss.

Because once the realization that there is no god sets in, then you may find it very diffcult to cope with the fact that you (and the environment and other people) are sole people responsible for all your actions and nobody else. So please continue with your belief, we are not here to change that, why ruin somebody's happiness.

god as a concept during the times when there was no culture or laws to follow was probably a good concept to instill moral values or guidelines to live in a soceity, to live and let live. But now the concept seems to have outlived its purpose and people interpretted in ways that they want. It has gone to such an extent that different gods have started preacing different value system. gods now even requires followers of other god to be killed to protect their own follwers, can gods get any better ?

<Lets ignore those ideals and let know to our own minds how God should be. We can discuss more on this.>

like I said , this post is for others, why are u guys arguing. Shakeel is in his comfort zone, let him be. There is only one life with a definite life span, so let him enjoy. Shakeel, believe whatever you want to....

Mr. A:

"forget religions, forget catholical church, forget..."

no way to talk to someone who ignores every concept of godyou do not believe in god
the god everyone know as "god"
you believe in your god, shakeel god

fact is
if i don't know there's something behind a door,
i open it to see
this is a door i can't open, so i won't say there's somethind behind it or notwell,

maybe there's a godi don't careit's useless in my life

i always got to solve my problems by myself
i never requested for gods help
i never wished for any help
and believe those problems aren't few

here i am

healthy mind ^^

Mr.A:
I have my reply to your answers in square brackes :))

<even if they dont have answers, i assume they will have some logical explanation for it>
[if i say i dont know, i dont know. period. what do you mean by logical explanation for something i dont know?]

Just because I dont know answer for something, it does not prove there is God.
<Not only you my friend>
[i dint quite get this comment]

<no random numbers in this math, let it be force of attraction, speed of rotation, revolution,path traced, etc.>
[6.67300 × 10-11 m3 kg-1 s does not look like a number i remember when woken from sleep ]

<He is the Creator>
[ just saying something is one, proving is another]

See this: both you and me dont know something. I say I dont know, you say you know and the answer is God.
<Forget me, if anybody else knows the answer, what it could be? (others inthe community can answer this question)>
[i dint quite get this comment. when i say you, it is not you. i mean all theists in general]

<
God is one.
He is eternal.
He begets not.
Nor is He begotten.
There is none like Him
>
[ eloquent prose, but void of facts ]

What is the use of adding one more layer of useless abstraction?
< you would like the guy who stole your cellphone to rot in hell >
[???? i would like to be a millionaire, i would like a lot of things, but what has that to do with reality???
you mean, if i just start believing in god, all these things would happen?? :)) i dont like to cheat myself. ]

<lets forget how religions define God, Atheists are free to think 'out of the box' >
[ ok, till now, i have not heard a logical defn of god. and btw, why should atheists think about god??? i
became an atheist precisely because i was not convinced of any defn i heard. if that is the case, then why
should i define god???? if you are so ardent a theist, it is you who should have a consistent defn]

Me:
Are you a person who doesn’t believe in God just because no religion around you gives a convincing explanation for God?
In that case, you are not an Atheist. You need to imagine how Ideal God should be.

In my view, an Atheist is someone who says there is no God because they say everything happened naturally by itself.

You just hating religions (almost all of which give vague explanation for God) don’t mean you don’t believe in God.

Why do you call it - shakeel’s God, when you don’t believe in God?The God I say is the one who created everything, made all rules, controls and decides everything.

The God who doesn’t need wife, who doesn’t need children, who is all hearing and always listening, who doesn’t need food for existence. These kind of definitions (which Venkatesan calls eloquent prose but void of facts) can apply only to God because it is Him defined everything for us to discover and learn.

There can be two possibilities:

1. There is no God.
2. There is God.

1. If there is no God:
Is there anyone in this world who can answer to my WHY?

2. If there is God:who is the creator, sustainer and disposer of every affair in this universe.

Is it not the most important truth?

Angelo, the door is not something, which you can’t open, if you explore the signs of Him.

You solve all the problems by yourself, Well and Good, but not all problems in life need to be personal, there are lot other things in life, how people interact with each other.

Who will dispose them? Doesn’t this prove that there has to be a future for this life where we will be judged?

What will you sentence Adolf Hitler to, for his brutal killings of > 100000 people?Hang?

Can you kill him more than once?

Then how is he going to be judged for the remaining > 99999 people?

Venkatesan, when I said “Not only you my friend”, I meant that no one will be able to answer.

6.67300 × 10-11 is still a definite number even though it’s difficult to remember. You said you don’t know the answer.

When I say I know the answer. (eg. For the WHY I asked) I mean I know that it is how it is defined (by God).

If anyone knows the answer, please write.

Useless layer of abstraction? there need to be a Judge who knows “everything” to give the perfect verdict. Isn’t it?

Being a theist, I gave a consistent definition for God.

Which characteristic of Him of what I said will you deny?

Mr.A:

a theology teacher once told mean atheist is not someone who doesn't WANT to believe, is someone who doesn't GET to believe.

it's more than clear to me that a judge is not necessaryand your example of hitler
(actually, his correct name is HITHLER, but since theists do not know history, we can say hitler)do you think he rots in hell?

yor the good and great savoir, god, saved him to heaven because hitler believed he was doing the right thing?

no matter what you do good or evil thingsyou die, it ends."

"Are you a person who doesn’t believe in God just because no religion around you gives a convincing explanation for God? In that case, you are not an Atheist. You need to imagine how Ideal God should be."

no, it's because i don't need a god
i'm good on my own

and one day i'll die and i'll become food of some animal and you will die tooand will become food tooit's life and death

no death without life, no life without death.and it's not a god's rule

btw

instead of using hitler's example use stalin, who killed much more than hitler (although it's less than 100000, unthinking creature)

Mr.A:
To Shakeel

I am an atheist because god as explained in books and by people is a logical farce.

If people cant accept something as simple as grass cant evolve on its own, how can they be convinced something like god which created everthing else and hence much more complex spring on its own?

I dont understand this fact. There is no test to see if god is present except for some abstract answers. I have all along met hteists who simple ask some fundamental question like how universe came into being and if the other person does not know the answers, simply say GOD and then fail miserably when asked more about god.

Heck, I thought shakeel would be different. He says he knows the answers to everything in universe and that is GOD. I am exasperated.

I say there is a cricket pitch in pluto. please disprove it to me. If you cant disprove it, it obviously means there is, doesnt it?? the theists arguments are like my past argument.

And I never said shakeel's god etc etc. Is god only for humans? what about countless other animals? what about people born before christ or mohammed ???

each religion says adherents of all other religions are heading for hell... there are lot of inconsistencies in every 'gospel': be it bhagwath geeta, bible, koran or diamond sutra... and shakeel's assumption about atheists simply baffles me..

i dont believe in god because i thought about it and saw that logically god is just a farce.... just a stick for ppl who need it.. either good or bad depending upon people who use its name... and of course my thoughts are influenced by my experiences.... i am not a fool to outrightly reject anything without basis.

I still try to listen to what theists say to see if there is some pearl in it... i am sorry to say i have yet to find any..

And i reitereate: i just wrote what i thought. since this is writing, it is not possible to see my facial expressions and hence this might be miscontrued.

i wrote it in a jolly mood and not with some vengence :))))
==
(there was a delay in answering)

MrA:
you didn't answered my questions

Bye

Me: (inviting him again)
My response in bold.

a theology teacher once told mean atheist is not someone who doesn't WANT to believe, is someone who doesn't GET to believe.

[It’s a ray of hope for me]

it's more than clear to me that a judge is not necessary

[ Is it fair to let go the criminals? ]

and your example of hitler (actually, his correct name is HITHLER, but since theists do not know history, we can say hitler)
Thanks for the information.

do you think he rots in hell?yor the good and great savoir, god, saved him to heaven because hitler believed he was doing the right thing?

[You are still thinking individually; think about Human relations, how can anyone out rightly flout human rights?]

no matter what you dogood or evil things you die, it ends.

[Don’t you feel there need to be a common code for life. Will not Earth be like Hell if everyone imagines in the same manner]

"Are you a person who doesn’t believe in God just because no religion around you gives a convincing explanation for God? In that case, you are not an Atheist. You need to imagine how Ideal God should be."no, it's because i don't need a god

[No, its because you didn’t feel the need for God]

i'm good on my ownand one day i'll die
and i'll become food of some animal
and you will die too and will become food too
it's life and death
no death without life, no life without death.

[True. But don’t forget that humans are more of mind than of body. Do you believe in soul?]

and it's not a god's rule

I am an atheist because god as explained in books and by people is a logical farce.

If people cant accept something as simple as grass cant evolve on its own, how can they be convinced something like god which created everthing else and hence much more complex spring on its own?
I dont understand this fact.
There is no test to see if god is present except for some abstract answers.

[that is the point where exists a race condition, like my WHY. There are a set of equations, you see it and say I don’t know the answer. I say I know it and the answer is God. The equations I mean here are the signs of God (like the creation of male/female, day/night, mind, sleep etc …). ].

I have all along met theists who simple ask some fundamental question like how universe came into being and if the other person does not know the answers, simply say GOD and then fail miserably when asked more about god. Heck, I thought shakeel would be different. He says he knows the answers to everything in universe and that is GOD. I am exasperated

[There are a lot of factors which Humans cant understand, I again remind my WHY here.Fail miserably when asked about God? We will discuss it in a separate thread.]

I say there is a cricket pitch in pluto. please disprove it to me. If you cant disprove it, it obviously means there is, doesnt it?? the theists arguments are like my past argument.

[ Cricket pitch in Pluto? Not necessarily be there. It’s not intelligent. It can’t judge. ]

And I never said shakeel's god etc etc. Is god only for humans? what about countless other animals? what about people born before christ or mohammed ??? each religion says adherents of all other religions are heading for hell... there are lot of inconsistencies in every 'gospel': be it bhagwath geeta, bible, koran or diamond sutra... and shakeel's assumption about atheists simply baffles me..

[Everything in the universe is God’s. Lets not enter into religions because first I want to convince you about the concept of God. (Out of the box ? )]

i dont believe in god because i thought about it and saw that logically god is just a farce.... just a stick for ppl who need it.. either good or bad depending upon people who use its name... and of course my thoughts are influenced by my experiences....

i am not a fool to outrightly reject anything without basis. I still try to listen to what theists say to see if there is some pearl in it... i am sorry to say i have yet to find any..

[I believe you will see your pearl one day.]

And i reitereate: i just wrote what i thought. since this is writing, it is not possible to see my facial expressions and hence this might be miscontrued. i wrote it in a jolly mood and not with some vengence :)))) [Nice of you]

After inviting a Mr.A to join again:

Mr.A:

i truly can't believe you asked me to return to read this.your reality of god is the one you created."for me that is this way.. and that this way"

you believe in god because the world lacks answersyou're lazy"

i don't know the why of this, so, it's because of god"

+_+

bye

don't ask me to join again

Mr.A:

you have started it again ...

u dont realize that ur questions are stupid and ur explanations are much more stupid ...

u can never prove the existance of god ...

i would suggest u to read some books on evolution ... but even after that u will ask me the same question ...

no one can explain u unless u realize it ...

For the Mr.A who left:

Angelo, incase you read this would have been happy if you could have answered my questions or asked me more questions ...

Lazy ? Being more dynamic, you should by now have answered me.Anyways, Im happy that I gave you the message. I can only show you the path.

Me:
My response in bold

you have started it again ... u dont realize that ur questions are stupid and ur explanations are much more stupid ...

If I ask How? its an intelligent question, because you can answer with your equations. But when I ask why that equation? You have no base and so term it stupid.

u can never prove the existance of god ...

I agree I cannot show you God, but I can show you His signs. But it requires thought from your side to realise Him, without bias, ego.

i would suggest u to read some books on evolution ... but even after that u will ask me the same question ...

You got my point

no one can explain u unless u realize it ...

realise what ?

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